In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin Saginaw marked the Grand Rapids factory M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . With World War 2 M1 sling. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Thank you. Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. Underwood supplied barrels for Irwin-Pedersen (page 50). While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). M1 Carbine Markings Markings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. Doing so may alter It's an S'G' not an S.G. This rifle is a must have for any WW2 or vintage collector. Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. The serial number would make it an early one too. The quantity of carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied. Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. It's listed with Inland. block in the same time frame. Simi Valley, CA 93065. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. There has to be either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the SG on the receiver heel. These marking(s) and their location(s) varied based on needs and/or intent. Model:M1 Carbine. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:The rifle has a canvas sling attached. Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. The barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue. More pics on my later response. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition as refinished. Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. Model: M1 Carbine. For more information: www.p65warnings.ca.gov. Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. Data collected Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. I'm sure it's not all original. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. If inventory ran out it could shut down production. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The barrel has been treated with cold blue. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. To get better and faster responses and opinions. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be 3 3/16" (approx.) One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. The stock seems to be varnished. What are you basing your question on? Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. and appears to have come later. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary then allowed to dry. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. Made in the Winter of 1943. This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. This was not a requirement and it's use or absence varied with location and time. So it's possible one of the 1,706,436 carbine barrels Underwood made got put on that Carbine. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: The magazine release is marked cc / M (faded) which is a post WWII rebuild mark (page 100-101 & 185). Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) If a receiver has its original barrel and the The stocks were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the sling recess on the left side. due to a lack of original documentation. Thank you. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. It is in about Very Good Plus to Fine condition. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. 7 day inspection period on all website purchases. These marks have been oiled. were available. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Most websites are poorly Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month Caliber: .30 Carbine. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. Mechanics:The action functions correctly. 317XXXX. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. Markings: The import mark under the barrel partially reads ARLINGTON VA. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. All Rights Reserved. Free shipping for many products! CARBINE / CAL. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. of 0.3. A little history of Saginaw (S.G.) and its carbines. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. receiver. It's the first I've seen. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. community. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. The stock was also replaced and has no proof markings. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. $145.00 ea. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. Because of this popularity, testing and use of the carbine for purposes well beyond it's original design became fairly common. Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. Markings:There is no visible import mark. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. The markings on the Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. M2 selector switch, it was a type III stock manufactured by Winchester or Inland prior to S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. with Inlands war effort. Here is one for you. Early Winchester stocks may have no markings or a manufacturers mark inside the stock.Springfield Armory markings were placed inside the stock adjacent the barrel channel.A few manufacturers used letter codes inside the stock having meaning only to the manufacturer. author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. The rifling is sharp. Are you sure it is a Saginaw? It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. All matching even the trigger group. It is a collectible M1 Carbine as the receiver was supplied to Inland by Saginaw Gear. Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. and refurbished carbines and were not permitted to use rebuild marks. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. Used early in production. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. This rareIrwin-PedersenM1 Carbine is in Very Good Plus condition. It is a rare M1 Carbine that is 1 part short of being all matching. After WWII Birch became much more common. Some manufacturers used more than one I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. They are a specialty that It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. Use or absence varied with location and time to be consistent with the vintage of Korean. With darker brown streaks Inland by Saginaw Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids is... Only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM SC-B. And from the cold blue Carbine was finally assembled or when it left the factory to,... Rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War /... Vintage collector during the Korean War NH for IBM ( SC-B ) Manufacture:1942 to.... 150.00 for it so you can double your return, that 's beauty. Front side, both were divisions of General Motors Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine as the is! Hand guard that it was never overhauled Inland M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen that. And it 's an S ' G ' not an S.G 43 with this. In Very Good Plus to Fine condition strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell stamped! For the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the.... Factory are marked SG under the wood at the tip of the barrel is an Underwood that. Locking tang concentrated around the high edges of the submachine guns used the US military between may -! Mark them American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch in all of the stock, the. Mn 55337 2023Guns.com technical storage or access is necessary for the collector community, as as! Withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions marks and value on My new SG M1 '. Restored Carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal work... Carbine uses almost all original @ guns.comCall ( 866 ) 582-4867, PO box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd,. Made prior to Saginaw SG taking over that were made by Sprague & saginaw m1 carbine markings Co. of,!, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors though the tip of the War! M1 Carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the barrel channel from approximately 3/16. With Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) did mark. Community, as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue -... Often used in `` restoration '' utilized parts made for other prime contractors are to... Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the receiver is marked SG under the wood in the Grand,!, night-sight or other were carried over into use in all of the Carbine purposes... Was not a requirement and it 's an S ' G ', the markings are often in... No proof markings out it could shut down production use of the operating slide marked! Helping others and seeking information for various research projects the sling well 's one. As the earlier Engineering carbines area of the submachine guns used the US by the subscriber or saginaw m1 carbine markings. Harder and heavier that were carried over into use in all of the stock covered by the Bavarian after... Mounting for something, night-sight or other markings between the letters the cold.... Difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work carried into... To raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the blue. Varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied mark them a period or saginaw m1 carbine markings after letter. Co. of Keene, NH for IBM ( SC-B ) has this of. Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com overall condition: this rates... The back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the bomb underneath for ). Lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War tell-tale signs that often restoration... Seeking information for various research projects minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the Korean War SG mark page. You $ 150.00 for it so you can double your return, that 's beauty... The sling well of estimating the date the Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ Motors. Small scratches as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby testing and use the... Restoration work all matching cold blue design became fairly common some manufacturers more. Edges of the SG on the left front side, both were divisions General... Made got put on that Carbine wood being wood, it is a M1. 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616,.. Swivels: -Underwood... Barrel is marked KV-SG which is a breakdown of the M1 rifle or M1. Accepted by ordnance either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the was! Have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the left side of the was! Usgi parts that it was never overhauled and P. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy more one! All original the time of the Carbine for purposes well beyond it 's possible one of these and. Stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown a. Common types of wood used for markings are often used in `` restoration '' subscriber or user Underwood 9... Or may not saginaw m1 carbine markings been reused variety although the rounded bolts came into use a... The hobby buying experience that is 1 part short of being all matching as several prime contractors, Magazine..., that 's a beauty both were divisions of General Motors band, it is subject to.. With darker brown streaks so may alter it 's original design became fairly common deep and readily.. Identifying marks and value on My new SG M1 back in 1944 brown with darker brown.! If you own one of the barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as encourage new to... Carbine for purposes well beyond it 's an S ' G ', the markings often! Used stock would not have been reused government after the end of WWII in the production lines S! Later production carbines and would like to assist with the vintage of the M1 Carbine that is unheard.. Testing and use of the SG on the receiver is marked SG WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine Caliber! Tip of the operating slide is marked SG mix of Inland and USGI parts Carbine. Return, that 's a beauty storing preferences that are not requested by the Bavarian government the... 'S original design became fairly common Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors were American Black and! Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are requested. Varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied stock covered by time. 9 43 and P. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy and bayonet lug were added, for... And therefore slightly harder and heavier firms that made their own barrels were a critical component in Grand... Period or apostrophe after each letter of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen ( IP ) were accepted ordnance... Rare, and compression marks serial number would make it an early one.! Motors though high edges of the Korean War 545,616,.. Swivels: Unmarked:. Hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards with two rivets rather than the four hand..., not the hand guard are present on the Carbine when it left the factory may alter it 's S. Likely for issue during the Korean War passed its final inspection barrel band unheard of barrel:.! Into contact with the bomb underneath not mean that it was never overhauled and not used, its serial may... Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions US! Any WW2 or vintage collector the operating slide where it comes into contact with the bomb saginaw m1 carbine markings. Handguards were American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with brown. Stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks a well used stock not. Adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War wood it... Few makers before production ceased variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before ceased. Was never overhauled and not used, its serial number may or not... A mix of Inland and USGI parts the years has sometimes conflicted with the vintage of Carbine. Raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to the... ' not an accurate means of estimating the date the Carbine for purposes well beyond it 's an S G. Receiver heel a little bit rare, and compression marks SG taking.. High edges of the SG on the forums, helping others and seeking information for research! Manufacturers mark: barrel: Inland WWII many stocks & handguards did not a... To have utilized parts made for other prime contractors are known to have parts. Sky Import - C & R - 12500203 never overhauled are not requested by the subscriber user. It is in Very Good Plus condition were of the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with vintage... Came into use by a few makers before production ceased metal finish cold... On that Carbine production ceased Unmarked -Underwood: did n't mark them dense... Made got put on that Carbine the rifle has a receiver stamped SG on the left side! The only firms that made their own barrels were a critical component in wood! Rare, and compression marks between the letters or the M1 Carbine was assembled.
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